1.24e / 6.68c
Game Played: 10-Sep-2010
Game Length: 78:46 min
The Ganking Chinese vs The Turtling Singaporeans
Who do you think will win? XtC tries out the long forgotten Bristleback against a solid ganking line-up. Will the pig be able to tank them all? Or will YaphetS win this game with yet another awesome gameplay? Who do you side with? Do watch the replay and read my long-long analysis of the game. :)
Looking at the line-ups I would say, Nirvana.cn pretty much outpicked XtC. If Doom and Enigma can get a dagger, they’re likely to win all team battles while Lion and Maiden can take care of the “ganking” phase.
XtC on the other hand, tried to counter Nirvana all the way. They had something I could call a “Keep-Distance” line-up with all Voljin, Zeus, Venge and Sniper capable of keeping down Enigma’s Black Hole from a distance. The biggest flaw with their line-up was that there was no AoE stunner. Their only initiator was Vengeful which was also one of the only two stunners in team. All hope rested on Bristleback if he’ll be able to farm or not. One good thing with the bristleback pick other than tanking his team was that there was no high armor hero in the opposition which would mean his quills would deal a good amount of damage, even if he’s totally disabled by the 4 stunners in opposite team.
My first thoughts for Nirvana laning were like-
Top – Doom Bringer
Mid – Lion
Bot – Sven + Maiden
Jungle – Enigma
What the above plan I propose shows a strong laning plan promising a good late game with the right people getting the farm. However, it turned out to be Sven roaming while Enigma soloing which meant that Nirvana would rather prefer to push and end the game quickly, possibly before BB gets a radiance.
Regarding XtC’s lanes, they were quite as predicted except for the fact that I thought Venge/Vol’jin would stick with BB rather than roaming around.
Things worked out pretty well in the beginning for Nirvana but eventually they started losing out in ganks that happened behind Scourge towers. The picture of mini-map shown below was taken at 14:30 game time shows a team gank behind Scourge’s lvl 1 tower.
The complete Sentinel team got wiped out against a loss of just one hero i.e. Vol’jin for XtC. What I want to say by this is that the Sentinel team showed somewhat over-aggression and had to pay dearly for that. They could've farmed a bit more maybe on Sven and other heroes before going out for strong pushes.
One thing that surprised me whole game long was Nirvana’s item choices. Here’s what the inventory of Lion, Enigma and Rylai looked like at 25 mins game time.
Okay, I can understand the fear from Bristleback (Vanguard), but where’s the dagger? And isn’t keeping the gem with a low-hp hero dangerous? Do tell me if someone has a good explanation.
The game that looked like into Nirvana's hand started going into XtC’s favour at the 29th min when BB got his radiance.
A lol moment at 31st min when Doom escaped one death, thanks to Neutral Creep purging BB. :D
This is seriously something Icefrog should look into imo. It makes the player go like “wtf?” and reduces his enthusiasm in the game. Anyways, another funny thing soon after, Zeus died to Ancient Creeps at 34th min. o.O Maybe he pressed the Windows key or something. LOL!
After a number of fail attempts, Nirvana.cn got the first base tower of XtC at the 36th min. One could easily notice how they ignored killing or even damaging BB, something that the normal pub gamers should take note of. Sentinel got a lot of chances to stun and/or kill BB but knowing that killing him would be very difficult and their spells would be better off on his other mates, they just took the tower and reverted.
Zhou (Doom Bringer) did a blunder at the 40th minute. Somewhat over-confident with his Aegis, he died out for no reason taking away with him two team-mates (Lion and Sven) who came to save him. Eventually they lost two of their outer towers.
At this point, the roles of aggression and defending switch teams for a while. :P XtC looked fierce while the Sentinals just tried to save their base towers.
The game again took a twist when Sentinel took out BB followed by taking out barracks of two lanes at the 49th minute. Then again, funny things galore... the Sentinels kill Roshan and Enigma sells out the cheese!!! Time for ME to go like WTF! Okay, now this one makes me go to playdota.com and check out stuffs about Cheese...
The Cheese can be shared with allies just like any other consumable, or sold for 500 gold. When used, it will instantly give the user 2500 hp and 1000 mana.
O.O Just a 500G! Do you sell an item like that just for 500G!?! Not me! Okay, this was something pub gamers should NOT have taken note of... :P However, one should do notice the viablility of BB in competitive games, such that all of Sentinel players had to become a “Tank” to face him + Zeus properly. :D
One thing I forgot to mention which might hit your mind is why Lucifer kept dooming Bristleback when there are so many casters in the opposite team? The answer is because Doom deals universal damage, it is not reduced by Hood of Defiance and/or Vanguard as such. As the Sentinel team didn't develop much DPS by physical attacks, this was the best spell Sentinel team had to damage BB. Also, the Sentinel team was fat enough to eat Zeus’ nukes. [Another wtf inventory moment here, why Zeus completes his Aghanim soo late in game with all tanks in opposite team. There were better options like Necronomicon and Vladimir’s Offering which could help his team push.]
The game took it’s final turn at Sentinel’s bottom base tower, where Nirvana.cn won the battle owing to their buy-out money. :D Finally, the team supposed to be having the better line-up won. Congrats Nirvana.cn and thanks to both team for showing us a great game.
Final Scorecard
Recommended Game for Bristleback and Lion.
Winner :: Nirvana.cn
Now, if you've read till this point, DO NOT miss out TSE's insightful counter arguments this blog post.
Awesome analysis dude. You cleared out a lot of things. And yeah, that selling cheese was really awkward.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
Delete"If Doom and Enigma can get a dagger, they’re likely to win all team battles"
ReplyDeleteman i hope u know, but the usual item choice is kelen for sven lion and enigma not for doom, why would he even need a dagger, he better use that money for more hp/armor/etc
Hmm. Maybe I'm a little outdated. They used to have Dagger on Doom around 4-5 months ago... for blink-silencing the main caster before the battle starts, like in this case would've been Zeus.
ReplyDeletecm's v can open sight on high ground without putting wards, I guess that's why she has the gem
ReplyDeletePoint Noted. :)
ReplyDeleteAlso, can people use their names, so I can remember who told me so n so? :D
they had vg+hood so "Sentinel team was fat enough to eat Zeus’ nukes." Thus doom didnt need dagger for silencing zeus.
ReplyDeleteUnprofessional and poorly written.
ReplyDelete@above above
ReplyDeleteThe dagger thing I wrote was only by seeing the line-up and not the game itself.
@above
Please elaborate...
epic game and good post.
ReplyDeletedagger is definitely one of the better items for doombringer because he has the potent centaur stun - people get dagger on centaur, why not for doom in this case?
ReplyDelete& yes @ the cm gem carrying thing albeit it was definitely a bit dangerous, she was the only one who could deward properly
your analysis suggests doom was used to deal damage to bb however the silence was more of a reason. bb was the best hero to silence simply because the disables were not a problem [like you said, they had 2 stuns]. by silencing bb, he doesnt retain his insane movement speed or damage, effectively reducing his ability to move in and out of fights, furthermore - no armour/slow stackage.
sniper pick by xtc was simply bad. its true what you said about the long range enigma counters, ie. vs witchdoctor zeus and sniper but are 4 heroes really needed to counter enigma? other than that, sniper really had no place in the lineup and as a consequence fed like crazy [ie. no farm for him either] early in the game and even late in the game did not have much of a presence. xtc needed a better carry than that although there werent a great deal of carries left, most desirable ones were kunkka [enigma counter] and spectre [anti blink], which were banned. just tried to think of a hero xtc could have used but they were shut down too hard, naix or slardar? they sort of screwed themselves by banning medusa and storm in the second phase, they could have used them themselves instead of sniper
as for the sceptre on zeus, xtc had no open windows to push at all so necro/vlads MAY have gone to waste although vlads isnt necessarily a pushing item [although necrobook IS (a core pushing item) at that stage in the game] but even so! witch doctor should have tried to build it not zeus, and what should be noted is wd began to build a bkb, seriously? that late in the game, once he stuns and maledicts, hes finished his job, although one may argue he doesnt live long enough for the vlads to take effect, but neither does zeus! which is why zeus bought the sceptre. zeus was one of the core heroes xtc needed to survive as up to that point he was still dealing massive damage, which meant he needed hp of some sort, and in that case sceptre is the best item for hp just because it gives him the extra boost and can be obtained in parts. he could grab a heart, but saving 3.2k on zeus with a nirvana lineup like so? not happening.
lastly - i didnt really like nirvana's items either especially the 2 x shivas, reckon lion could have just got a platemail then a blink with the extra 3.3k or so, otherwise building a "tank" was pretty reasonable and turned out well but who am i to critisize them? they won.
sorry for the long post
does silencer still have a place in competitive dota ?
ReplyDeleteHello TSE. You put up some really nice points out there, specially the doomed BB one. :)
ReplyDeleteI agree on the point of Sniper not being that great a pick but XtC believed in a turtle strategy both their games (last game they picked Pit Lord and Void). Banning Storm was the right thing to do imo, Nirvana already had the picks advantage and a Storm pick would've devastated XtC completely. :D (Personally my mind was asking XtC to pick Traxex. :P)
"As for the sceptre on zeus, xtc had no open windows to push at all" - That's quite a negative statement I would say. Nirvana were dominating most of the time and to win a game but XtC needed to BELIEVE that they WILL get an opportunity. Aghanim was simply no use imo because first, it didn't increase the damage much on hooded enemies and second, even with the hp it adds up, he would still end dead once caught. What he could've done better was to support his team like you agreed with Necronomicons. Even Vol'jin could've considered the Necro option. :) Any aura that could help them push (primarily help BB and therefore the Vladimir option) was fine imo.
And about the weird Nirvana inventory, I guess they were simultaneously enjoying the extra gold as most didn’t NEED the farm. :D Then again, Necronomicons could've been an option for them too... better than Gemmed Rylai I would say :P
About the "who're we" thing, we're not criticizing, we're just discussing our view-points. :P Also, don't worry about the length because your's was the kind of feedback I was looking for. :)
As far skills are concerned, Silencer is viable in this caster ganking meta. Although the problem with picking him is that-
ReplyDelete1. He's not that great of a carry so we can't make a line-up around him.
2. He's a Support that cannot be picked early! Supports are normally picked early while drafting because they don't reveal the strategy. Picking Silencer just alarms the other team not to pick "combo casters".
As a result, I would say that Silencer is a viable SUPPORT pick to be picked in the later drafting phase when the enemy has already picked heroes like Storm Spirit, Tiny, Rhasta, etc.
waaaaaaaaaa .... wall of textttt =(
ReplyDelete@Troll
ReplyDeleteDon't want to read all this wall? Maybe you should check out Luminous' Commentary on http://www.dotacommentaries.com/index.php/commentaries/4076
Wow.. Really.. Really.. Good Work !!
ReplyDeleteHaiz..... Xtc picks are rubbish enemy has a doom and you fucking pick a zeus? FOR WHAT? NOOB XTC. Wasting Cn time only so noob want to versus other people joke xtc
ReplyDeleteReally atrocious around 54min late game the cm item can even match up with sniper what is this...? The only reason they lost is toally bad choice for carry player for rgc host he is not a good farmer! Can see from the item difference from him and his teammate bristle back or comparing his item with cm. Maybe bb too pro compare with zeus? Not much difference too + he is a attacker this make no sense Xtc "might" have won if bb use sniper then sniper use bb or get a better farmer for the carry sniper role 58min sniper with only bkb treads n manta? KIDDING ME? Although it`s -cm game. Maybe the rgchost normally dont farm so badly but if it is so this is just because CN is too strong not letting sniper farm much and really good pick by cn picking sven after xtc picked sniper and sniper seriously bought a manta FOR WHAT? There is a sven u think his splash fake? Totally "PRO". I personally would buy a butterfly and never consider manta and after that since my farming eg as bad as rgchost i would not buy bkb. FOR WHAT? Sven already so pain buy deso or burzai to add on my damage as a carry since bb bought assault crs cause even if u bkb u dont do much dmg might as well do some dmg and get killed its more worth it. This game totally disappointed with xtc standard especially that sniper rgc host. BB played extraordinary well GOOD JOB! I guess that should be how a bb should be played. And one point to note cn connection was not as good as xtc so maybe they lag or so if not the score most probably will be like CN 30 /XTC 15. Good luck Cn players yaphets,zhou,banana ,Insence,DCG(Da Ge Cheng) on your future dota career :). ALL THE BEST FOR FUTURE COMPETITIONS BEST OF LUCK! XTC train hard! Dont give up!Will determination and willpower success is near.
ReplyDelete